Taking a BIG step - any advice appreciated

[BruceM]

Hello,

Good to find this forum. I've done some background research, but now I need to talk with knowledgable people.

My question in brief: I plan to buy a static caravan in North Wales. The Holiday sites provide the best choice, but I'm not sure if they are suitable for extended stays (eg several months at a time). What's your opinion on this?

More detail & background: Sold my house 3 yrs ago, single again, currently living in rented accomodation in N. Wales, regularly stay ay my elderly parents' house, to help them with various tasks, etc. There are static caravan parks everywhere I look, I like staying in caravans, I have some savings, but my self-employed income is low (while current rent is high).

The obvious solution: invest in a good caravan, and split my time between living there and at my parents'. I would love this, but I have a few worries. The residential sites seem few and far between, and I'm "only" 48 - they seem to have a minimum age of 50. On the other hand, there are a wide range of Holiday sites, some very well equipped (wi-fi, etc), no age limit. They close for several weeks/months - that's no problem, but I have heard that councils might not be keen on what I'm proposing (since they wouldn't get my council tax - they'd get my parents' only. Well, the same would apply if I lived all the time at my parents').

The Holiday site owners I've spoken to seem mostly relaxed about it (they just require permanent address details, to satisfy councils, I believe - my permanent address would be my parents'). I've also spoken to a few people who manage to essentially live on these sites without any problem (taking an extended holiday during the closed weeks).

I'd be grateful to hear your experiences or views. And what about practical details such as receiving post, for example?

This is a fairly major step for me, and it's a big expenditure - so any advice or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Bruce

[fontaine]

hi bruce
i have heard of thiis before
quite simply; residential sites are for living on and holiday sites are for people who want a second home but have a permenant address elsewhere, as in your case it is your parents and a lot of people live on holiday sites through the season and holiday abroad in the close season
however a lot of sites are closing this loophole on holiday sites and require proof of a permanent address elsewhere, which of course some of these people cant provide as the van is the only address; i have experienced people who have been kicked off site for this reason from our site in wales
it all depends what you want really, personally i enjoy the facilities which a holiday site offersand you personally have always got the back up of your parents to stay at their home
also youve got the option of subletting your van on the holiday site when youre not using it to supplement youre income or to help sustain the ground rent. which would not be allowed on a residential site
hope this helps

[BruceM]

Hi fontaine,

Yes, that's helpful, thanks.

The main problem for me is that there seem to be so few residential sites (or at least I can't find them). And the few I have seen appear to mainly cater for the more upmarket (ie expensive) "park home" type thing.

Ideally, if I could find a residential site which had static caravans, I'd have no problem with the extra expense of the site fees, etc. But they don't seem to exist (or if they do, can anyone point me to them!).

Also, looking at some of the big N. Wales sites, it seems to me that although they are officially holiday sites, they don't have that "vibe" at all. They look as if most of the people more or less live there. Can there be that many people who can afford the expense for holiday use only? There seems to be a massive static caravan population in N. Wales.

As you confirm (I've heard it from a few others) there appears to be a clamping down (due to councils, I presume). I wonder if this would affect me, given that I'd want much more extended than typical "holiday" use, but not as a permanent address. If there are as many people living (or close to living) on these sites as I think, I wonder what the councils would think they were achieving by making so many people effectively homeless?

It's difficult to get a feel for what's going on (beyond what I've heard). Frankly, given the expense involved in purchasing a static, it's a little frustrating. I can't decide based on what I know so far. But, anyway, thanks for giving me some extra pointers, and I hope others will offer some more advice, or describe their experiences.

Bruce

[Teakbank12]

You will find rules stating you must vacate after so many nights ie 28, you could of course spend a night back at your parents to satisfy this clause.
Residential sites charge far more as they are exactly that "Residential", holiday sites are strictly governed by planning rules ie close for "X" amount of weeks/months.
If you intend using the caravan a lot then make sure it's Double Glazed & Centrally Heated with winter insulation included as they do get very cold!!
Also look at a site & Pitch that are away from the fleet vans in a nice quiet area.
You can find a listing of "Park Homes" which are residential, with some stating the over 50/55 age plus NO kids!!
Residential sites will charge diferent rates for both the van & fees as they are totally different to holiday sites.

[fontaine]

i have a bit of a bugbear about these people living on sites with no alternative address, they know the rules and openly flaunt them, and if they get thrown off site they only have themselves to blame
as for if the council clamped down these people would be effectively homeless then so be it as they are breaking the rules and are already effectively homeless as they have no home address
get them all off the sites i say
i have a home address and i have to pay bills at my home address and at my caravan, so why should these people with no home adress get away with paying just one set of bills
i say get every last one of them off the sites
i know it is slightly off topic but i feel very strongly about it

[BruceM]

Thanks for the info, Teakbank12. Would you say that there aren't really any (or many) residential sites with static caravans, or do you know of any?

Fontaine - I sympathise of course. But maybe some of these sites would go out of business if they didn't have the income from people who use their statics for more than simply holiday purposes. In fact, I read of some local politician characterising North Wales holiday sites as "ghettos" for council tax avoidance.

That shows a perception that large numbers of people (not just a small minority) use them for this purpose. Actually, I don't think the primary intention is to avoid council tax - I think the primary intention is to find somewhere to live which is affordable (given the absurdly high cost of renting and buying property).

Certainly in my case I'd be happy to pay council tax because the saving of static versus rented apartment completely dwarfs any consideration of whether or not I pay council tax. So I think the councils may be viewing the problem in a distorted way.

But, yes, I can see the point of someone who is paying premium for a nice holiday site, with a holiday vibe, who doesn't want it to become a sort of low-cost housing site. But, then, if that's already the reality for some sites (and has been for years), what then...?

I still don't know what to do - it's a dilemma. If only there were residential sites with statics more available. Any further practical advice would be much appreciated (private message me if necessary).

Again, thanks -

Bruce

[gag1951]

When we bought onto our first site in Northumberland, the salesman told us that we did not have to pay community charge and we could live on the site for 11 months of the year if we chose to ! WRONG !!! We had a property in Northumberland at the time so we were paying community charge anyway and we decided to keep on paying it regardless of the salesman's patter. It was just as well that we did because one of the van owners happened to mention in the village pub one night that he wasnt paying any poll tax and hadn't paid any for years ! Unbeknown to him, there was a local councillor in the pub and the next thing that happened was that EVERYONE on the park got a letter from the council asking them to provide proof that they were paying community charge. Those who had avoided the charge were made to pay up and one old guy had to sell his van to pay off what he owed ! Needless to say, the sales team on the park closed ranks and denied that they had told anyone that they need not pay community charge !!!
On our present park, you are NOT allowed on the park unless you provide proof of a home address, proof that the community charge is being paid, two utility bills and a telephone bill to prove that you are resident at the address that you have given them. Ony when all of these criteria are met, are you allowed to have a van on the park so, its just goes to show the differences that exist out there !

Cheers.
gag1951

[dasboot]

Regardless of the laws of council tax etc,living in a static may sound idylic but its not its all its cracked up to be.I suppose it depends on what spec of van you buy.
We lived in a static on a residential site for 18 months in 2000/01 and i can tell you it was bloody freezing in the winter time.This was just an ex holiday van with single glazing and a solitary gas fire for warmth.
We love our van to bits and spend every weekend in it but its always nice to get back home to a 'proper house'.
I know the actual idea of having a big long holiday in your van sounds good but i think the novelty would soon wear off and if you choose a holiday park thats open 10 and a half months,then you would also be in the van through the winter.Waking up with ice on the inside of the windows will be the one thing ill never forget:eek:
If you do decide to buy a van then make sure you buy on with dg and gch.

[FarSouthWest]

I'm in the same 'stateless' position that the OP is in. I am kind of looking for a 2nd hand van, on a site that's quite flexible about how long I can be there as I have been at my parents' for a year now and they're octogenarians and driving me nuts :)

Prices/rent are still too much for me though... but I do want the moon on a stick.

Looking in South Devon mostly, not the cheapest of areas though is it.

[scruffy murphy]

Hi Bruce,
Have you spoke to Talcre Beach Group? They have 4or5 sites which each cater for different needs eg age group/amenities/price their seasons also vary. Maybe worth a look?

[parkandleisure]

Somepeople do live in caravans , during the season of whatever the licence is , a great majority of them pay full band A council tax , and rent somewhere during the shutdown . The reason why its not fully enforced as to why the council dont get them removed is because and this is verifiable if you search Google, is that both Labour and the Conservative govs are looking at caravan sites to solve the short term housing shortage out.

[caroll72]

Wer'e in a similar position to you Bruce & i can tell you i have spent over 12 months researching, ringing & emailing different sites.
Everything you say in your post is true, and the sites vary tremendoulsly with their rules as to how long you can live their, council tax payments etc.
Until the government get round to regulating them all, they'll keep on making up their own rules.
As iv'e read on several other posts, & it's good advice, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING, to protect yourself & just in case they change their rules again.
As for a previous poster stating that people should not be allowed to live in them is utter rubbish. He's lucky he can afford 2 places, whearas most of us, can afford only one.
And if people didn't pay out thousands to buy a static in which to live, then there'd be even more people who would'nt get housing, thus creating more homelessness.
As long as people pay their council tax, i don't see what the problem is.
Good luck in your search, Bruce.

[Teakbank12]

Wer'e in a similar position to you Bruce & i can tell you i have spent over 12 months researching, ringing & emailing different sites.
Everything you say in your post is true, and the sites vary tremendoulsly with their rules as to how long you can live their, council tax payments etc.
Until the government get round to regulating them all, they'll keep on making up their own rules.
As iv'e read on several other posts, & it's good advice, GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING, to protect yourself & just in case they change their rules again.
As for a previous poster stating that people should not be allowed to live in them is utter rubbish. He's lucky he can afford 2 places, whearas most of us, can afford only one.
And if people didn't pay out thousands to buy a static in which to live, then there'd be even more people who would'nt get housing, thus creating more homelessness.
As long as people pay their council tax, i don't see what the problem is.
Good luck in your search, Bruce.

Because abusing the sites licence conditions risks the site losing their licence ultimately meaning all of who obey the rules risk having a caravan with nowhere to relocate it when the site gets closed down!!!
Just try to abide by the rules ie have an address for your bills (could be with a relative where you lodge with them?) & vacate the van for a night once every 28 days or whatever the site rules state.

[TreeTops]

Hi Bruce,

Please don't buy a holiday static to live in it really not the right thing to do.

Holiday parks are for holidays and caravan holiday homes are not designed to live in. I don't doubt that you'll find a park which will sell you a caravan, but it's really not wise.

Parks with a closed period are generally licensed for holiday and recreational use. This mean in the event of a dispute with the park owner or the council you not rights under law to protect your "home", because a caravan can't be a home.

I don't know if I'm allowed to recommend a park, but a friend of mine ownes Whitehouse Leisure. They have some proper residential units, which come with a full residential lisense. The license is called a "Written Statement for Wales", it's a contract created by government to protect park home owners. Whitehouse Leisure is in Towyn, it's a nice park and the owner is a good bloke.

If you buy a holiday caravan as a home its more expensive than renting an apparment / bungalow with you take into account depreciation and pitch fees. Park Homes should increase in value in line with the properties in the area.

If you want more info drop me a PM and I'll send you some some we give out on our park.

Good luck, I hope you find somewhere.

Cheers

Andy

[BruceM]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to my queries about buying a static caravan to live in.

In the end, it came down to expense - I bought a cheap flat instead. With site fees and depreciation, the caravan option ended up looking more expensive than it originally appeared to.

It's a pity, though. It's so difficult to find cheap housing - I've been v. lucky finding a reasonable (repossessed) flat I can (barely) afford. Given the number of static caravan sites, and the willingness of people to live in caravans, you'd think that common sense would somehow provide that as an option for living (rather than just for short "holidays"). Given the huge (frankly, scandalous) site fees, why not? I'm pretty sure the council could work out an arrangement benefiting all, if only it had the vision.

We can send people to the moon, but we have difficulties with providing accommodation for all, even when that accommodation already exists.

[dasboot]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to my queries about buying a static caravan to live in.

In the end, it came down to expense - I bought a cheap flat instead. With site fees and depreciation, the caravan option ended up looking more expensive than it originally appeared to.

It's a pity, though. It's so difficult to find cheap housing - I've been v. lucky finding a reasonable (repossessed) flat I can (barely) afford. Given the number of static caravan sites, and the willingness of people to live in caravans, you'd think that common sense would somehow provide that as an option for living (rather than just for short "holidays"). Given the huge (frankly, scandalous) site fees, why not? I'm pretty sure the council could work out an arrangement benefiting all, if only it had the vision.

We can send people to the moon, but we have difficulties with providing accommodation for all, even when that accommodation already exists.

Glad you're finally settled bruce and i can see where you are coming from with the static caravan thing.I don't know quite what you mean though about peoples willingness to live in statics.I don't think people who own statics for short term breaks and their own personal use would ever consider letting someone live in their van on a longterm basis as what would be the point of owning one?As well as the legalities of it all for both park owner and van owner i just don't think it would work.If the council however decided to create residential parks for tennants to alleviate the housing shortage then i can see your point of view.America has it's own trailer parks so i suppose it could happen here.However,considering the amount of planning applications submitted by the travelling community that are routinely thrown out for permanent residential parks,it would be a case of one rule for the council and one rule for everybody else if the council's applications suceeded on a regular basis.

[Teakbank12]

Glad you're finally settled bruce and i can see where you are coming from with the static caravan thing.I don't know quite what you mean though about peoples willingness to live in statics.I don't think people who own statics for short term breaks and their own personal use would ever consider letting someone live in their van on a longterm basis as what would be the point of owning one?As well as the legalities of it all for both park owner and van owner i just don't think it would work.If the council however decided to create residential parks for tennants to alleviate the housing shortage then i can see your point of view.America has it's own trailer parks so i suppose it could happen here.However,considering the amount of planning applications submitted by the travelling community that are routinely thrown out for permanent residential parks,it would be a case of one rule for the council and one rule for everybody else if the council's applications suceeded on a regular basis.


There are already many residential caravan parks (Park home sites as they like to be known).
Holiday sites are just that, only for occupation "no more than 28 consecutive days" usually.

[BruceM]

There are already many residential caravan parks (Park home sites as they like to be known).

Yes, but not very "many" compared to the vast number/size of holiday sites. And the accommodation offered ("park homes") tends to be considerably more expensive than static caravans. When you add the site fees, it's not really a "cheap housing" option. It's retirement homes for the well-off.

My point was that there's scope for at least some of the existing holiday sites to provide genuinely cheap residential accommodation (static caravans) - legitimately, and to the benefit of everyone. If only councils had a little bit of vision and imagination...

When you look at the vast number of "holiday" sites along the North Wales coast - statics as far as the eye can see - you appreciate the very obvious fact that they are not all (or even most) being used merely as holiday caravans. There is a large "residential" population, but it's (needlessly) frowned upon and (needlessly) clamped down on, etc. It's like 'prohibition' -there's a demand which will not go away, no matter how much you seek to criminalise it or disapprove of it.

I understand, of course, that relatively well-off folk who can afford statics (and expensive site fees) strictly for holiday use may not want to inhabit residential caravan sites, but this looks after itself: the well-off simply gravitate to the more picturesque (and therefore expensive and exclusive) sites. This is already the case, to a large extent.

[little green dragon]

I'm pretty sure the council could work out an arrangement benefiting all, if only it had the vision.

Not sure this entirely fits with what you've said Bruce, but while we were looking at the vans that were available on our site, the sales rep got talking to us. Someone mentioned something about taxes, and he said that as our site is still owned and essentially run by East Lindsey District Council, they generate a lot of revenue from the ground rent on the 700+ vans on the site. They can then offer the lovely folk of Skegness a lower council tax - he said otherwise the cost would be extortionate to live by the seaside.
I said it was a pity that us helping the folk of Skeg couldn't be used to benefit us instead...let us have a lower council tax!!
If Lincolnshire councils can come up with an 'offset initiative', why can't others?
As mentioned, there are hundreds, if not thousands of vans in Wales, but I bet the Welsh don't have a cheaper council tax because of this.....:rolleyes:

[parso58]

Hi Bruce

We have recently bought a caravan on Glan Gwna site near Caernarfon. They have both caravans and lodges on the site which is open for 10 1/2 months. I believe that the lodges are classed as eligible for council tax as purchase of them is similar to a house. We are thoughly enjoying this site as it is beautiful well maintained and close to both beaches and Snowdonia.

[emmell]

I couldn't agree more???????????????
ML.